Live.Awake

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Predestination - Where do You Stand?

| Posted by Ben Cotten on Feb 18, 2008 • (Comments)

I’ve started preaching through the book of Ephesians. If you want the notes from the first week that covered the historical context of the book, I’ve uploaded a PDF of it. We covered Ephesians 1:3-14 [+/-] this week. You can’t read that piece of scripture without dealing with the question of “who chose who” in salvation and when.

I would contend that this topic and the topic if the deity of Christ are probably the most fought over doctrines in Church history. I don’t like to frame the debate around Arminiand vs Calvinist too much because that leads to comparing the 5 Arminian points to the 5 Calvinist points and soon we have left good theology behind and are comparing points. Plus, I don’t know many people on either side of the line that hold exclusively to all 5 points without at least one or two caveats.

At any rate, I thought it might be interesting (and maybe a tad dangerous) to ask here where some of you stand. I’m not asking for a big theological doctrinal thesis. Just a survey of my readers. If you guys step out of the shadows and participate, it could be fun.

Did God choose us before time, getting no help from us and save us? Or, did God look ahead, see who would choose Him and then “predestine” based on that foreknowledge? In other words, does God choose us, do we choose Him, or is it some combination?

Is there such a thing as free will? If so, how does that reconcile with His sovereignty?

Is this just WAY too deep for a Monday? ;-)

Have fun.

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Viewing 9 Comments

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    I believe that God is sovereign over all, including my will. He can harden and soften my heart according to his plan.

    I am still responsible for my choices. My philosophy is that it is better to do what he ask than to spend 3 days inside of a stinky fish before I do what he asks.

    It seems to me that we just have to throw out or glaze over way too much scripture to believe that we our will is really totally free. God gives us freedom, but he always has the trump card if he chooses to play it.
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    If there is no free will, then we cannot love Him or others. Love is not love if it is not a choice. In His sovereignty He determined ahead of time that we had free will and would experience a state of grace upon the turn of our will toward Him.

    He can do anything He chooses within His sovereignty; that He chooses not to manipulate me is among the great wonders of faith.
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    Wow...yes indeed it's a hefty Monday topic! No surprises as to where I stand :-D

    I'll put Romans 9 on the table. The term "predestination" simply means our destinies have been previously determined. But by ourselves or by God? Did God have to wait and see who'd choose Him and then "elect" them? Then it becomes man's choice and man becomes the author of his own salvation. If salvation is free, unmerited grace then we can't CHOOSE it. Ok, ok, I'm monologing now. It's a tough nut to crack I know and always the "But that doesn't make God just!" reply always seems to pop up in response. Of course Paul anticipated this and so said, "Who are you, O man, to question God? Does the clay vessel have a right to complain to the potter about its treatment?"
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    Take the "pre" out of "pre-destination" for a moment. If you believe everyone has a destiny--a future and hope they were meant for--then I think it's safe to say that not everyone fulfills their destiny, just as there are many who will never reach their full potential.

    This is what I think of with the term "pre-destination". There is a future we are "pre-destined" for in God, but not everyone will partake of that destiny. We must choose to live in that pre-destined purpose.
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    Ben, I would be very surprised to find out that God doesn't exercise His sovereignty in who is His or not.
    That might be easy for me to accept because I personally don't care that much about free will – what I experience of it seems to get me into trouble. I also want to give God all the credit He deserves in my salvation. On the other hand, I do want to be sure not to view the Scriptures through a lens that skews my understanding of God's love for the world (of people) or somehow justifies my not caring that much about the lost.
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    Who says Monday's have to be light? Or does the fact that this is Tuesday negate that?

    In any case, great topic-- the discussion that never ends.

    I personally believe that at some point we're going to realize that a lot of this is a manner of perspective on time. What does past, present, future mean to a God that envelopes time-- that is outside of time? If all of what we know as reality is really external to God, and He sees the beginning and the ending, and yet we only see minute by minute, who's to say that both aren't correct based on perspective?
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    We live within a finite understanding of an infinite God. We may postulate scenarios for our existence that extend outside the boundaries of the finite experience, but in doing so significantly increase the probability of being incorrect or at least slamming full speed into limits.

    Accepting limits is part of accepting His ways are higher, which I do (and thus acknowledge the follwoing may be completely off base). So then, limiting ourselves to describing with accuracy the meanings and parameters of the finite seems a more plausible logic, though not nearly as inviting to consider perhaps.

    Within the finite, the idea of free choice makes more sense than ascribing all control to God, though He may from the infinite perspective being doing just that. The regular guy doesn't ponder the supernatural nor the implications of various scriptures all that deeply. Most folks live seeking to gain some control over that which is believed to be their responsibility before the accountability which God holds. It is finite, but logical to do so.

    If we allow predestination to be extrapolated far enough, what prohibits a person from saying, "I am sinful because God is hardening my heart. Therefore, I must resign myself to sin and damnation, which is all God's responsibility"? Contrast that with, "The power of the cross sets me free to make decisions rather than be a slave to sin. So why do I want to sin? Oh, I love me more than God. My answer then is to learn to love God more than me, therein I will discover that I am my own agent (united with Christ by choice) against sin. I choose loving Him through Christ over loving me through sin."

    What are we being held responsible for if not overcoming sin in light of the completed work of Jesus on the cross? It strikes me that a powerless religion needs to develop an understanding of God which can justify the lack of power over sin in Christian lives. Which is a backhanded way to gain control over something which seems uncontrollable.

    Interestingly to reduce one's responsiblity to being loving calls one to release personal controls over destiny and the material through the chosen rule by the Spirit of God. Or put another way, when I accept the finite and my responsiblity therein, take the leap of will to overcome sin purposely and replace sinful motivations with loving ones, I begin to live an infinite experience.

    I guess I am arguing for a simple, finite human reality, in which I am able to stand on the work of Jesus as an agent of His love. If I must put down a belief in my free will, I cannot experience by faith the cross and standing on His completed work, overcoming sin through His in-dwelling Spirit, nor be an agent of His love. I am just another primate following instincts which are innately from God.
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    Pre-Destination? Well are we trying to say that there is an exact route which was chosen for us by God. I think that we all are on the same path that will take us to heaven. But first, we must make a turn back to God because we are all born into sin and therefore in need of turning back. Second, I think that God only wants one thing from us in our lives and that is to love him as well as each other. We must look at it that all the decisions we make puts us in control of only the small things from day to day. But in terms of the way that our lives play out, I think that God is at the controls guiding us. The end result of God's control is that we will ultimately get to the one place that we strive to end up. Predestined to a certain extent, yes I agree with it but if we are talking about a move by move feel then no.
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    **Bzzzzt** (brain short-circuiting) I think it's all much simpler than we make it. (Or *I* am much more simple that that)

    The words never speak of individuals being pre-destined. I believe this passage speaks of *Mankind* being pre-destined to be in an unfettered relationship with God.

    There is a tandem work of God's Spirit guiding us into faith, and the response of our will to accept it. But the actual "work" of Salvation was accomplished by Jesus alone, obviously. God can use any means necessary to accomplish His will, however, "it is not meant that any should perish."

    Along with pre-destination comes God's "foreknowledge." Even though He has predestined all of mankind to be adopted as sons, he also knows who has the will to accept Him.
 
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