Joel Osteen Bashing
// October 19th, 2007 // Church Life, Video
Have you ever watched or heard something that you thought was good at first, but just didn’t sit right for some reason? During my Friday post I linked to a video of Mark Driscoll giving Joel Osteen what-for. My brief comments indicated that I thought Driscoll was right in all that he said. All day I’ve been rethinking it and I thought I would turn this into a longer post with a more complete and balanced perspective.
First, watch the video so you will know what I’m talking about. I’ll make some comments following.
First, let me say that I usually agree with Mark Driscoll. I appreciate his wit from the pulpit as well as the stand he has made for good theology and missional living. He has also shown a great willingness to publicly repent for his mistakes over the years. All that being said, I have a problem with something here.
When I first watched the video, I thought it was great. His arguments were good and he did it with a sense of humor. My personality identifies easily with that “irreverent” style. Sometimes that leads me astray a bit… I don’t take issue with any of the doctrine here. I have similar problems with the “prosperity message”. And, since seeing Pastor Osteen on Larry King some time back I am concerned about what he didn’t say and what he avoided. I wish he had taken a clearer stand on some issues. (That stuff may be on YouTube by now, though I couldn’t find it)
However, I don’t think Joel Osteen is a wolf in sheep’s clothing, the anti-Christ, or a bad man. I think it’s obvious that He loves Jesus and wants God’s best for his congregation.
So what’s my problem then? My problem is that if Joel Osteen is a Christian man, why is it ok to so publicly attack him? It’s not just Mark Driscoll. Half the church is throwing barbs his way. I’ve seen people accuse him of all sorts of things across the blogosphere. How does this honor Christ and how is this a good use of the pulpit? If Driscoll had simply done his teaching without mentioning Osteen (and showing a clip) I would have been happy.
It’s easy to get sucked in to this kind of attitude. I admit, I did when I first watched it. Even so, I think calling Joel Osteen out directly is not only out of line, but divisive. It doesn’t help anything, nor does it model for us how to act as believers.
All this has done is thrown another log on a fire that should not even be burning. But, the world is watching while we act like a dysfunctional family. Let Joel Osteen do his thing. He’s one of God’s kids and God doesn’t take kindly to His kids being picked on. The Osteen bashing is getting out of hand.
[tags]Mark Driscoll, Joel Osteen, video, opinion[/tags]
here is the clip of Osteen stumbling through the Larry King interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfwYU2pmWYQ
Also, I think there is a difference between calling someone a heretic, or calling someone out on their sin, or calling into question someone’s character AND picking apart the message of prosperity that they are teaching.
I didn’t feel like Driscoll went after Osteen’s character and person, but rather, went after the message itself.
I thought Driscoll was quite kind to Osteen. Shockingly nice actually. He was much harder on McLaren, Pragitt, and Bell a few weeks ago..
While I agree wholeheartedly with what he said, I thought he unchartaristically failed to preemptively respond the the most obvious objection to his argument. “Jesus suffered those things so that we didn’t have to.”
I believe when somebody publicly speaks or publishes an idea, it is in the marketplace of ideas and it fair game for debate. If somebody is teaching something that is wrong, it is immoral not to stand up for the truth. Driscoll did not attack Osteen, he pointed out the deficiency of his theology. The primary reason this theology needs to be debunked is because Osteen is using his credibility to spread it. Without mentioning that this idea is attached to the bestselling author who pastors the largest Church in America it seems too silly to spend time on.
Osteen preaches to the entire world as if they are saved, but he never tells them how to be saved. This is dangerous, and is likely to leave stadiums worth of people burning in hell. He needs to be confronted so perhaps he will repent, and some people could be saved.
There are several instances in the new testament where rebuke was public. They didn’t have video, but they did write letters.
I agree that attacking the message would be appropriate. But MD was doing more than that here. By showing the clip of him, talking about Osteen specifically, and making fun of the magazine cover he made it about the man as much as the message. And that’s my singular complaint about the whole thing.
Jesus rebuked Pharisees and money changers in the temple. He rebuked the Pharisees because they promoted legalism and self-effort as a means to “salvation”. He rebuked the money changers because they were using God to make themselves rich – desecrating the presence of God and worship. I just don’t see Osteen fitting into either of these categories.
Osteen’s Book deal is reportedly worth 13 Million dollars. He is definitely making a profit. I don’t see much difference between the money changers and Osteen. He is standing in God’s pulpit, and selling pop psychology instead of God’s message.
Osteen is the strongest and most articulate voice in the word of faith movement. I don’t think Driscoll could have explained their ideas nearly as well as Osteen did in the clip.
The youtube clip doesn’t include the rest of the context of the sermon. He was showing all kinds of media clips from pop culture showing how we are sold all kinds of products using or pursuit of happiness. Osteen is doing nothing different than the magazines and advertisements that Driscoll had shown earlier.
The one thing I have learned during the past year of my leaving a church I was a part of for 22 years and blogging is that there are many different opinions as to what is gospel and what is not floating around.
Joel Osteen doesn’t do a whole lot for me—this is not to say he is right or wrong but rather that I and a whole lot of other people are somewhere else.
Christ died that we might have life in Him and that more abundantly. I don’t see sickness in the garden of eden—but we are not there anymore.
If we have faith as small as a mustard seed we can ask and it will be given. But as we all know there is a lot of different opinions surrounding that one as well.
Joel Osteen aside—is the church we are attending changing the culture around us. If it is—the boat is in the water—if not, the water is in the boat.
This was very insightful and informative as Mark compared Joel’s message to the Bible.
Joel’s sermons lack considerably in theological substance, which does not necessarily need to include Greek or Hebrew interpretations, but it should be more theology based rather than pyschology based.
I certainly would not consider this to be bashing Joel, but a rather clear exposure and example of the danger of not being doctrinally sound in teaching the Word of God.
I disagree this time Ben. Now, understand that I really do love Joel Osteen’s positive style and smiling face although I deeply disagree with a lot of his teaching. I agree with Josh and I believe in the “law of venue”, in other words, once Osteen began marketing himself with books and TV shows, he was fair game for others to criticize and yes, should I say it…judge him. That is part of being a major player in the Body of Christ. It’s just like your dad’s rule with prophecy…if you give the word publicly and it’s not God then you have to be corrected publicly. To not address someone’s fallacy in order to not be “divisive” is just too close to being PC.
Joel’s great.
Mark’s great.
Ben’s great.
God’s great.
The end.
Yes, I have the book. Yes, I have read it. Yes, I have the CD. Yes, I listened to it. Yes, it has been a positive influence in my life. There is not enough joy out there these days. I am thankful that someone is doing their part. People seem to enjoy complicating things that are very simple. Peace out you bunch of grumps!
Ok. I really do agree that we shouldn’t bash Joel Osteen in a public sermon. I really don’t know much about the guy to be honest with you. From what I can tell he is void of sound theology and doctrine. It is so important to not build a ministry simply around personality. I listened to Joel’s most recent sermon from their website and he said something that makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up.
He said that he isn’t called to teach “any kind of deep theology or doctrinal stuff” but just wanted to encourage people. People who criticize him are only jealous of his success. He doesn’t listen to his critics because they bring him down.
Ok… so if he isn’t teaching theology or doctrine, what is he teaching instead?
Oh no, Joels the antichrist! Mr. Driscoll better be carefull or Big O will send out his thugs and break his legs!
I like Osteen, he has a nitch and is doing a good job at being warm and fuzzy. He’s no John Hagee or Billy Graham and definitely no Ben Cotten! :) There’s alot more to serving GOD than the “warm and fuzzy” though. Thats just to easy and, oh yea, we are all guilty of it. As americans ascetic living isn’t our strong point and Joel Osteen isn’t any help.
To me it sounds like Paul and James are at it again.
Throwing stones, causes a nice dynamic though, makes you think. Whoosh, hey! sorry gotta go, stone almost got me. Oh you wanna play huh, it’s on now.
Just so we’re clear… I’m not defending Joel Osteen so much as I’m saying that we need to get better at criticism. I have some of the same problems with the Osteen message as you guys do. I just take issue with criticism that isn’t done in humility and crosses the line into mockery.
I wish Mark Driscoll had given Joel Osteen the same treatment that he gave Doug Pagitt and Brian MacLaren at the Convergent Conference recently. Humble, direct and sincere.
Here’s a link to it. Scroll down to his session on Sept. 21.
I would agree with you about Driscoll being wrong here, IF Joel Osteen did not have the impact and the following that he has.
I did a blog in response to an article I read about Osteen, and I was critical of Osteen in the blog. Driscoll’s video actually convicted me. I think that he did it the right way, and I might have done it the wrong way. I did not take into account that Joel is my Christian brother. I think that I should have at the very least prefaced my blog by saying something like, “Joel Osteen is my brother in Christ, but…”
Still, I think that Joel Osteen, and other similar prosperity preachers, are a big issue in American Christianity today. I think that the worst thing about Osteen and his message is that I can see how a lot of people could come into contact with his message, agree with him, and think that they “have it.” When they really don’t. And I fear that if somebody shared the Gospel with that person, they might react something like, “Oh I don’t need that, I’ve got what Joel Osteen says and I like his way better.”
And I don’t necessarily agree with the comment that Jesus died on the cross so that we don’t have to suffer. I think that Christianity promises suffering, and there are passages in the New Testament that explicitly state that. I’m pressed for time right now, or I would add a couple of those here.
One just came to mind- I don’t know the exact verse, but I’m pretty sure its in 2 Timothy, its definitely in one of the Timothy’s:
Don’t have the exact verse, but the gist is that if you strive to live a godly life, you will be persecuted.
I don’t think that we should necessarily seek out persecution, but we definitely need to be living more godly lives. Even if means that persecution is promised. Paul “boasts” in all of the beatings he received for preaching the Gospel.
Oh that I had such boastings!
See, Mr. Hamilton is saying what I’m talking about. I would never bash Joel’s personality or his “way” of doing church, but when he crosses over into inaccuracy, he MUST be judged by us, his brothers and sisters in Christ. Our world is so PC today, it’s hard to remember what our responsibility as Christians are sometimes.
Ben,
I agree with you – Joel is being bashed. Joel is off track theologically. I assume and trust that Joel is a Christian.
And Mark is off theologically if he has not attempted to communicate to Joel personally. I think that Mark’s message is “bashing”. More important than what I think about Mark, I think Joel would feel “bashed” by this video if he saw it – not edified. I think we need to be more careful of what we communicate as christians. We are know less about our love and more about what behaviors we are against.
Do we really need to gather in our “holy huddles” and finger point? I don’t know. I know this, God has called me to love Him with everything and love my neighbors myself. Lord, hear my prayer: give us the ability to call on You so that we can bring glory to You.
May God bless us in our thoughts, words and actions,
John
I use to watch Joel Osteen all the time until I heard him on Larry King. Why did I watch him? I often ask myself that. Like everyone else…it’s nice to have someone that makes you “feel” good. Isn’t that what we all want?
I was upset to hear that he does not represent the Cross because he doesn’t want to offent anyone. (????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????) If you don’t/won’t represent the Cross then, in my opinion, you don’t represent Christ and that would be considered “false” teachings.
Jesus did not go around trying to make everyone “feel” good. He taught about love and forgiveness. Which, by the way ,He spoke to me in 2005 and said there were only two things that we had to do here(other than putting God first) is to love and forgive. Look how many times that appears in the bible! Amazing! Why do we overlook things that are so important?
BUT WHOA! Look at this world. We cannot even do something so simple. I have forgiven myself for falling for Joel Osteen and I forgive Joel Osteen; I simply no longer watch him. The bible says if something offends you then pluck it out. I did and I thank God for awakening my spirtit w/ the truth.
The bible warns us of “false” teachings and we do need to educate others of such teachings. The bible also says that in the latter days, men will be lovers of themselves. Think about that. Again, we all want that “feel” good feeling and will do most anything to achieve that. AND the bible also says that many will fall away from the truth.
We are not here for ourselves. We are here to serve the Lord. Remember what Jesus said? I came not to be served but to serve. We are to be Christ like.
Haven’t you heard WWJD? Again, Jesus would not go around telling/teaching people what to do to “feel” better. Does Joel Osteen every quote any scriptures? I don’t know because I no longer watch him. He never did the time when I “use” to watch him.
In my opinion, most of the TV teachers/preachers are no more than gloified salespeople with a hefty salary! Read up on some of them. You will be ever amazed. One stated that Adam flew in space (????????) One has bodyguards (????????) Did Jesus have a bodyguard?????? My bible never mentions that fact. One will not allow you to “join” their church until you have shown them your income tax statement, i.e. how much money you make.(????????????????)
What about ATM’s in churches now?????? Were is all of this scripture???? AGAIN, the bible warns us of all of this. In case you haven’t figured it out yet, WE ARE in the latter days and we should be preparing our spirit,our soles, and lead others to Christ or otherwise the blood will be on on hands.
Again, several things to re-mention: Love and forgive one another as Christ has you. If something offends you pluck it out and finally go unto/into the world and preach to all nations. That’s all scripture(-sorry it’s not directly quoted)
So, if we follow the bible, then we should be able to control our tongue and get busy trying to serve God rather than throwing stones. Time is ticking away, quickly.
Are you perfect? Without sin? Do you have a stone to throw?
Love and forgive and see how things change.
Hello all,
Ben, you have converted me. I am now an anti-Osteen-basher!
I wrote a blog on it here: http://bigham.wordpress.com/2007/11/11/more-thoughts-on-joel-osteen/
I am struggling with the tension between disagreeing with Joel’s “message” and not knowing what to do about it. However, Ben, I agree with you that “Joel Osteen Bashing” on blogs is not the answer. For one, I doubt it will have much effect. I think Osteen supporters will just be defensive, and those who already oppose Osteen will say “Amen!”
More importantly, I think that Osteen bashing by his fellow Christians is an example of a kingdom divided against itself. I believe Joel truly is my brother in Christ, and as such believe I should take the route that Jesus prescribes in Matthew 18:15-16.
I live in Houston, so I am considering making some sort of an effort to contact Joel. I plan to at least send an e-mail with my concerns. If any of you would like to do so, they have an abundance of e-mail addresses for different parts of the church. I’m not sure which would be the best, but you can find them all here: http://www.lakewood.cc/site/PageServer?pagename=LCH_contactus
As for me, I’m planning to go for the general@lakewood.cc
I’ll pray about it, get my thoughts together, and fire off an email, and hopefully it can accomplish much.
“The effective prayer of the righteous man can accomplish much” -James 5:16
I pray that the Lord will consider me righteous once again as I come before him. Not that I have any righteousness of my own merit, but that the perfect righteousness of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ has been credited to me. And I pray that the living God would make my prayers effective, for His name and His glory, in the name of Jesus Christ.
Christians who are able to discern “Thank God” & pray for others who are being led astray… even though am an avid listener of Bro Paul washer’s preaching yet i truly believe its not intentional with Bro Joel Osteen to conceal the truth,i dont want to term Joel with other Prosperity Preachers who mean business bcuz I can see love for Jesus in him, However inexperience & fame is taking its toll on the young preacher… Pls pray that the Lord works with him and brings him on track …
Above all brethren we must realize that we should come to jesus for jesus not for money & for best life now. People can have the best life what they think is best life even without realizing the need for Jesus & go straight to Hell after death… Jesus laid the emphasis on repentance & turning away from sins so that by accepting his sacrifice we can inherit eternal life… but now Preachers are more concerned about the worldly life which totally underrates the sacrifice on the cross.
As followers of christ we shud intercede for others … Remember Lord Almighty spared israel cos Moses interceded for them. SALVATION IS OF THE LORD. Our Lord says “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion” Yet he accepted what Moses said.. What a lovely God we have. as a son calmed down his angered father Moses calmed down “The Almighty” by saying for your namesake have mercy on these people
All we can do is to pray for them so that the lord might have mercy on those souls who accept jesus expecting to gain earthly possession…. God Be with Us
Joel Osteen is a Tony Robbins the Second. He is a positive speaker not a pastor. Some churches try to change Christianity to include everyone and these folks are called false prophets. Joel is one of them. He is misleading his sheep and those who listen to him on the radio and see him on television the wrong idea of salvation. Has you ever heard his sermon on hell? I haven’t and one of you will either because he doesn’t speak on the topic.
I know this an old post but I am new to your blog. I am deeply taken back when I see one Christian bashing another one. Mark Driscoll is always bashing other people. He does not have to agree with Joel Osteens beliefs but when you keep attacking other Christians for there beliefs then are you truly walking in love. My friend and I have different beliefs in many areas in the Bible but we never argue with each other or criticize each other. We love each other. I don’t know who Mark Driscoll thinks he is but there is a slippery slope when you constantly go after other Christians. He can share his beliefs about a subject without attacking people. I don’t agree with him on many, many subjects but I will never bash him. If I met him I would walk in love. As a Pastor you have to be responsible to lay a good foundation. People imitate your walk in the sense of the principals you teach they are going to live them out. If you teach the principal of bashing others what will the others in his church do.
Love is something that needs to be displayed and responsible preaching and teaching.
I just found this post again via Tommy’s new comment. I read Terry’s comment, and it made me think. I’m not sure the purpose of the church is to change the culture around us. Anyway, it might be a good topic for a post.
i agree with that Sarah… but i think its quiet opposite these days …”Churches dont influence culture its the church which is being influenced by the culture”…
which is a very very pathetic state.
I dont know about others neither am being judgmental but i cant show love to a person who is leading my friend,family or even a foe to slaughter house.
Preachers dont realize its a matter of Life & Death of each every individual seated in their church. Churches should’nt sound like locker rooms were awesome motivational speech is delivered, believe me i can remain in the same old sinful state & yet be successful, i dont need a guy in Tuxedo to get on the stage and tell me that i can be a Victor.
instead of that what I wanna know is …
How to get off this sinful state of mine ??? am an addict to Greed,Power,Lust,Envy & Hatred… Tell me who can set me free ??? Tell me who can wash my slate clean & give me a new start ??? Tell me how can i get over these sinful fleshy instincts of mine… teach me how to lead a God fearing Holy life …The right answers for these Questions can redeem my soul from the Highway to Hell… The problem is who is going to give me the answers ???
its way better to hit your Gym rather than attending the church which dos’nt have answers for these … believe me sunday church is not a weekly ritual
My buddy found a webpage which i would say is a “Treasure Chest” for christians
sermons of Mr.Zac Poonen
http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/video_archive.php
listen to him & lemme know how is he different from our modern Celebrity Preachers
Christ be with u.
I second that!
I believe it is the churches job to advance the Kingdom of God that will influence the culture around us. The church sometimes adapts to the culture of a white church or a black church so on and so forth. We must be Kingdom Culture in the church where we are about the Kingdom of God. In regards to different preaching in different pulpits its pretty awesome that I can go to a church that shares my views. There may be another preacher who I may not agree with but with my Kingdom culture attitude I embrace him as my brother and pray for him in private where he may be off. I will not bash him because what I sow I reap. The one thing I can respond to is that persons fruit. If its damaging people thats one thing but if its just that my beliefs are different then is it becomes an opinion and I need to be careful from bashing another brother.
Why is that?
Because thats what the pharisee did to Jesus. They weren’t Kingdom Minded. They were looking at the outward appearance and from a biblical sense they did not agree with Jesus teaching and they tried to bash him to everyone and Jesus told them they were hypocrites. Thats why we need to be careful. You may not like Joel Olsteens preaching but there is fruit in his ministry and people are getting saved. His message may not be your cup of tea but are you right and he is wrong. Why is he right and you are wrong?
At the end of the day we called to love, to have the mind of Christ and we should stay out of debates that brings division to the Body. Kingdom Culture is advancing Gods Kingdom and thats what its all about, method and message is different for everyone but are you personally doing it should be our focus.
It’s funny that this thread has found new life again…
What do you guys make of John 17:6-19? Jesus’ prayer here indicates to me that we are necessarily living in a tension between living in the world and not being of this world. I think many of the problems all of us here see in the American church stem from either not being in the world at all (sectarianism) or making ourselves too much at home in the world (syncretism).
Am I right?
I think we have entered an area of communication and understanding that is actually the infrastructure of what most blogging about the Christian life revolves around.
What is not in doubt is that the church (the body of Christ) will be built and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.
What it means to be salt and light is still being discussed in forums around the world. I have been a Christian since 1979 and still don’t fully comprehend the mission statement to go into all the world, etc., etc.
I truly believe at this very moment that if the church
would truly be the church, what Joel Osteen does or doesn’t do would not be much of an issue.
Movements are born and movements die everyday. The ones that remain are those that God allows to be built.
Walking in the spirit, with one another, means to me that just like that grain of corn, I must die in order to find fruit and life or I will remain alone.
Yes we could be making ourselves to comfortable in the world. We can not follow the path of the worlds system. We need to embrace the principals of the Word. I have been a missionary so I don’t think its just America. But America does take things for granted and we have become numb to the goodness of God and people get caught up in the World. There is truth in that. Thats why I said we need to be Kingdom minded and that has to be our mission to advance it. Slothfulness is what is keeping people back and following the worlds system.
Terry, Well-stated!
“What is not in doubt is that the church (the body of Christ) will be built and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.”
Joel Osteen’s ministry seems to focus on making people feel good about themselves. I don’t believe that his mission is to preach the Word of God or lead souls to Christ. Obvisously, I do not know his heart. However, I watch his “tv show” praying that he would prove me wrong. Instead, I leave with a greater sorrow.
No one wants to preach obedience, sacrifice, or the wages of sin. Why? Because those topics do not sell books or fill offering plates.
When will we stop trying to make people feel good about themselves? When will we stop preaching to the flesh and start preaching to the soul?
[...] Joel Osteen Bashing [...]
This week I am teaching and leading a conversation on Acts 13. Paul here confronted the false teachers of false Gospels and brought people back to the person of Jesus…
I would not paint MD as the “Paul” in this scenario, but not all gospels the THE Gospel of Jesus Christ.
I notice that Joel Osteen’s authority is “the scripture.” Law school taught me that if you cite authority always cite the specific authority. Pastors who study their Bible could cite specific scripture verses so that the listener can always check it with the Bible. I have a hard time distinguishing Joel Osteen from Norman Vincent Peale or Tony Robbins. Vauge general principles, even if seemingly positive, is suspect. And people who get deceived by such “prosperity gospel” are the people who do not check their Bibles to discern whether the speaker is coming from God or coming from somewhere else.
But alas, from researching Joel Osteen online, I stumbled upon a very powerful, Bible-based, Christ-centered, heart piercing preacher in Paul Washer: http://www.heartcrymissionary.com/resources/sermons/paul_washer